In-School Spanking? Not Okay with Me
That’s me on the left (obviously) with what my friends and family have dubbed my “WTF face,” as I listened to my counterpart parse the difference between spanking and abuse.
Yesterday morning, I was asked to weigh in on a controversy surrounding corporal punishment in schools by Fox News, via their morning show Fox & Friends. Here’s the four-minute segment.
Some of you may be surprised that this is an issue, and may be checking your calendars to be sure it’s 2013 and we’ve not slipped back to the 1950s. But the truth of the matter is — and I was dismayed to learn this — in 19 of our great American states, it’s legal to paddle or otherwise physically discipline school children.
Fox got its teeth into this issue after Leeds Elementary, an Alabama school, sent home a permission form to parents. Essentially, families could opt in or opt out of corporal punishment in their kids’ classrooms. Fail to return the form, and your implicit “go ahead and paddle the little miscreant” is presumed by the school.
What the what? That was the reaction of Wendy Chandler, a kindergarten mother who was furious with the form. Not only did she check “no”, she wrote a note on the paper, reading, in part, “I can not imagine how it would ever be okay to show violence toward anyone. Hitting a child is beyond disgraceful.”
She got a wee bit of press, such as this article in the Huffington Post, and this post by KJ Dell’Antonia on the New York Times‘ Motherlode blog.
I was asked by Fox to participate in one of their “fair and balanced” debates on the subject. I didn’t know whom I’d be debating, and it turned out it was a man named Peter Sprigg, from the Family Research Council. I didn’t exactly count timing in the segment, but he seemed to get more time to express his “side.” Which seemed to be:
- he, personally, would not have checked “yes” on the form
- but he thinks it’s okay for parents to swat or spank when necessary for discipline
- …and he thinks it’s fine for parents to allow the child’s teacher the leeway to employ physical discipline tactics.
Sprigg had time, at the end of the segment, to rebut what the Fox host, Alisyn Camerota, brought up: that “studies” show that corporal punishment has a poor psychological outcome for kids. He dismisses such studies, saying that they don’t separate out “ordinary disciplinary spanking” (there’s a phrase for you!) from “real” abuse like whipping or — what? Closed-fist punching? Burning with cigarettes?
I did not get a chance to weigh back in after that, but here’s what I would have said:
- No one needs a study to show that kids who are physically abused are psychologically damaged.
- Who decides what “ordinary” disciplinary spanking is? The 145-pound teacher about to strike a 35-pound kindergartener?
- Even if disciplinary spanking doesn’t turn kids into psycho killers someday, it does, in the moment and possibly for years afterward, humiliate and shame a child.
- AND IT DOESN’T WORK.
People obviously have very different feelings about this subject, which why outlets like Fox can continue to flog it on TV. Before I was even back home and scraping the TV makeup off my face, I got an an email from a teacher that reads: “Corporal punishment is much needed and as a parent and teacher, I completely support [it]. Parents do not parent their children and the result is disruptive children.” She insists that if you’re not in front of a class every day, you can’t understand. That part, she’s right about. Later, I got a Facebook message from a high school classmate of mine, a teacher in a state that does make corporal punishment legal, though her county disallows it, to her relief. She wrote: “… My thoughts are if I can’t deal with an issue in my own classroom, I must be doing something wrong.”
Which is a point I tried to make. Hope some people heard it and weren’t distracted by my shiny lips and uncharacteristic hairdo.
By the way, Wendy Chandler started an anti-corporal-punishment Change.org petition. What do you think?
September 24, 2013 @ 11:20 am
On one hand, my brother and I were spanked as children. It was not fun, certainly, but neither one of us suffered any lasting detrimental effects. I was a pretty mouthy kid, so it’s a wonder that my parents didn’t spank me just on principle once a day. Almost all of my friends were spanked when we were growing up. And I didn’t grow up in the 50s. I’m 32.
On the other hand, I was paddled one time in 7th grade because I wasn’t in my seat when the bell rang, which was a hard and fast classroom rule. I still remember everything about that incident: how another kid was in my seat and wouldn’t move, how humiliated I was, and how I had to go cry in the bathroom because I was so upset and embarrassed. I still have angry memories toward that teacher, 20 years later.
I live in one of the states that allows spanking (one NYT commenter called us “third world” and said we should be “voted off the island” – thanks, we appreciated that) but I still don’t think I would allow my child to be spanked at school. It is MY job as the parent to discipline my child, and if I can’t raise my child to behave properly in the classroom, then something is wrong in MY home. I’m not a teacher, so I can’t speak into someone else’s classroom management style, but if my child causes a disruption, there will be consequences at home, in addition to whatever non-spanking consequences are at school.
I know already that spanking doesn’t work with my 3-y-o, and it makes me feel like a tyrant when I’ve snapped and swatted his bottom. Times have changed. I don’t parent the same way that my parents did, and that means that I don’t use spanking as my go-to punishment.
September 24, 2013 @ 11:38 am
Thanks, Julia. Yeah, I saw that comment on the Times piece about “voting off the island.” Not helpful.
I was spanked here and there as a kid, nothing too awful (it was mostly the fear of the wooden spoon than the employment of it that kept us in sort-of line). But my parents were (a) doing what felt right to them; (b) balancing out any minor paddling with plenty of conversation, love, and support, so obviously a little spanking wasn’t going to turn me and my sibs into lunatics.
The school thing is, as you point out, different entirely. I was never hit in school. But my sister was, and so was my mom back in her day (Catholic school). And the humiliation and long, hateful memory remains.
If a teacher ever hit my son? Yikes. I would be murderously angry, and I can’t vouch for what my husband might do.
September 24, 2013 @ 12:00 pm
I think a healthy dose of fear of the wooden spoon, etc. was somewhat of a deterrent for us, too. And yes, I never had any doubt that my parents loved me; they disciplined how they knew how to. But now I know (or try to know) better and will try to do it differently. They don’t make carseats like they did in the 80s anymore, either. : )
September 24, 2013 @ 11:33 am
I thought about your segment a lot after I watched. One thing that really bothered me was that they brought you and Mr. Family Research Council in to debate the idea, without even mentioning or discussing the fact that PARENTS at the school were opposed to the idea. They briefly showed the consent form, and I could see that there was something written there, but I think it would have been a much more effective news piece if they’d talked to the parent who responded with outrage.
You made excellent points, both in your interview and here (esp. here!), but to leave out the parents seems wrong.
September 24, 2013 @ 11:39 am
Yes, I know. That’s why I wanted to point out that the mom who made this news started that Change.org petition.
But another commenter on the Times blog post pointed out how ingrained the culture of spanking can be in some places and among some people. There really is a whole subset of people who firmly believe that sparing the rod means spoiling the child. That scares me.
September 24, 2013 @ 5:21 pm
Thank you SO much for speaking out about this. But I do have to call out the misuse of the word “discipline” when used synonymously with “punishment.” I think this is a common problem in the debate. Discipline and punishment, especially physical punishment, are not synonymous. Discipline is composed of 3 unequal parts: positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, and punishment, and there are many ways of using punishment without physically assaulting someone. Do children need discipline? Abso-fricking-lutely! I am the first person to think that kids need strict discipline and boundaries. But physical punishment is not discipline, and parents need to decide whether they want respect or fear, because you can’t have both. Sadly, there are too many small-minded folks who think that “it happened to me and I turned out fine” (which is my all-time favorite rationalization). The problem with that theory is that if a parent then simply repeats the cycle of poor parenting because he or she refuses to take the time, effort, and energy necessary to actually learn parenting, he or she is not, in fact, “fine.” Another common misuse of language is calling assault with an object “spanking.” Spanking is something done with the hand. that’s archaic and barbaric enough, but when you physically assault another human being with an object, it is no longer spanking; it is beating, which should be illegal under any circumstance. I also find the idea of a teacher using physical punishment to be a bit oxymoronic. Let’s hope that eventually we as a country will evolve enough to match other countries’ moral and legal rejection of physical punishment.
September 25, 2013 @ 7:54 am
Denise,
The look on your face while he was advocating spanking instead of the other — his words — “more abusive” types of punishment was priceless. That’s right, pal. Spanking is abuse, too.
I agree with Amy that spanking is punishment, not discipline. Smacking a kid to get him or her to behave may work in the short run, but it teaches them nothing more than “If you a bigger and older, you get to hit people to make them to what you want them to.”
Kudos to you for standing up to him. Fox didn’t give you time to follow up; that’s always the case there. But at least you were allowed the time to point out that corporal punishment in our schools in 2013 is ridiculous. Good job!
January 18, 2019 @ 5:00 pm
I don’t agree and let me tell you why at the age of 8 I was well out of control I grew up on a ruff estate fighting all the time daily in fact not long after I ended up in care children’s homes that did nothing except intraduce me to other kids way way worse than i witch was great at the time I fitted in well and made some really nasty mates who was into all sorts of shit we use to run and obscond daily get caught by police taken back and run again we was jumping trains wrecking property damaging cars we was bad I was happy to stay in that unit I was inn and do what the hell I wanted to do and I did just that after a few years they social services decided I need to be placed with a foster family I wasn’t up for that I was happy creating hell with my pals but they did it anyway placed me with foster family when I got there I kicked right off and made it that they didn’t want me witch was great I got to go back then they found another foster family again I was t up for that but I new what to do go there kick off and get put back with my mates over 4 years I had 33 different foster placements and I wrecked every placement deliberately just to get put back in the unit with my pals so we could obscond break the law and cause hell I had a really bad rep it is not lawful in the uk to touch a kid I new this awesome the law is in my favour one night we run from this unit and broke into 3 shops that night on the 3rd we got caught by police witch resulted in myself assaulting a police officer but what could they do nothing I had my own gang of mates in that children’s home 3 of them was very very good mates I had no respect for nobody I could come and go as I please one morning I got called into they office we have found you another foster placement yer right I though few days lads I will be back soon as I piss these new foster Parents of I went there and I was the first child in care they had they had two girls of there own I tried kicking off a few times but still they didn’t call my social worker to take me back going into two weeks now and still hasn’t given up on me if I’m honest that really pissed me off so I took off and run away that should do it got picked up by police 4 days later and thought I would be going back to the unit with my pals but I was a bit surprised to find I’m being taken back to the foster parents I remember feeling really really annoyed by that it wasn’t what I was use to normally when I caused a lot of hassle I got what I wanted the day after I got back there I hung around with a lad on they estate I was told to stay away from yer right I don’t think so that day I smoked weed and got pissed on cider when I went in I really kicked of with the help of the drink there one daughter same age as myself was not happy if they did stuff they was dealt with but no not Steve I heared them say a few times it’s one rule for us and another rule for Steve it was getting to the point where I tried harder and harder to cause hassle just to go back into a care unit with my pals I was drinking Booz and smoking drugs Dailey one night I started in my foster dad drunk but he didn’t rise to it what he did say was I will discuss this in the morning with you when you ain’t drunk that was all he had to say the next morning for the first time ever I got a bloody good hiding I told my social worker what happened her reply was good about time I asked to go back to the unit I was told no you are staying where you are I ended up getting a few good hidings after a short while and after a crime spree and years of doing what I wanted I began to settle down started going to a local school and started doing well there I stayed with them foster careers for 6 years I was a different lad I could have gotten into loads of hassle with people I met along the way and for the first time started thinking wow hang on if I do that I no what is going to happen so I didn’t do it now the best part the lads I use to hang with in that care unit two are dead from drug overdoses they other is doing a minimum of 20 years for a murder myself I now ha e my own family two kids and I work frontline emergency ambulance also trained in critical care so when I look at these comments on the harm it causes I don’t agree if it didn’t happen the way it did I don’t no where I would be today it did me good not cause harm by them being them I’m here today and doing really well and foster family 15 years in are still my family in some cases it does work
September 25, 2013 @ 9:46 am
I saw your video on Fox News. Congratulations for sticking your neck out to call for an end to the outdated, ineffective, risky discipline that has injured children and led to lawsuits against school districts. Leeds City Schools and All schools in the nineteen states should ban it immediately.
I have opposed corporal punishment in schools for more than 25 years and founded the Center for Effective Discipline. I led a coalition of 50 organizations that finally got school corporal punishment banned in Ohio in 2009. Please share this video by teens about their views on corporal punishment in schools.
http://youtu.be/yk0UEnphTu8
September 25, 2013 @ 4:50 pm
If you inflict pain on someone to get them to do what you want, the only thing you can accomplish is teaching that person that they can inflict pain on others to get what they want. And it all comes back around to you some day! I think I learned that from Star Trek.
September 26, 2013 @ 2:35 am
Not a chance in the world I would ever give permission for someone to strike my child.
October 23, 2013 @ 2:43 pm
Hello Denise-I support Corporal Punishment as an option for students who would prefer it as an alternative for in school suspension.Many students in High School especially Texas are given an option.Paddling or in-school suspension.In-School suspension-Sitting all day in the same chair could be considered abuse as well.