Do Childless Folks Have a Valid Opinion About Parenting?
Silly screenshots are my right as a parent.
Okay, taking fun photos with the webcam aside, how would you answer the question of whether childless folks — your sister, your friend, the checkout lady at the market, a New York Times writer — have opinions about childrearing you should take to heart? It’s a tough question.
Have you looked back — with honesty — about the things you thought, assumed, presumed about parenting before you had kids? Can you replay a little film in your head, a montage of times you said things to parents you knew at the time that you cringe at now? On the other hand, can you also pick out a few clips in that montage that reflect ways your thoughts and convictions about parenting before you became a parent have remained constant?
And does that matter? I mean to say, even if you’d say the exact same thing to that lady in the line at Target (or to your sister or your best friend), today as you would before you had kids, did you have any right to say it back then? Even if it was good?
Is there a way you can think of that saying something — making a parenting call, offering advice — as a childless person can be totally judgment free?
I’ve been pondering those questions ever since an opinion piece, called A Childless Bystander’s Baffled Hymn, came out in last week’s New York Times, by regular columnist Frank Bruni. In it, the childless-but-many-times-an-uncle Bruni shares his bemusement and bafflement about some of the facets of parenting he seems all around him. And here’s the thing: I agree with everything he says, just about. (In fact, the piece was pointed out to me, before I had a chance to read it myself, by a friend who has read my book — she said, “this guy says all the same things you say!”).
But I’m a parent.
Then again, most of the core beliefs I hold about parenting are the same as they were before I procreated. The difference now is that I’ve tested them, tweaked them. The difference is that now I have two living, breathing (fighting, scheming, delightful, infuriating, and so, so beautiful) boys that I have the responsibility to raise as best I can.
As best I can is a big deal, don’t you agree? I felt, reading Bruni’s piece, that even though I agreed with him, that somehow his almost identical theories or opinions have less weight coming from someone who has had the chance to test those ideas on actual humans (uncles don’t count).
The day after Bruni’s piece came out, Parenting.com asked me for my take on the piece, suggesting I might want to call out the guy for making parenting pronouncements from a place in which no one’s ever called him Dad. I could agree about that last part, so I took the challenge and wrote this post, for Parenting.com’s “Mom without a Filter” blog. Read it, but here’s a highlight of what I wrote:
Bruni feels the urge to wonder why we offer our darlings so many choices (who decided that families work best as democracies?); why we agonize about what they’ll eat (too many chicken nuggets, for sure); or why we spend so much energy ensuring their playing fields are even (and come with trophies). Instead, he insists, we should fret far less, and teach them how to overcome obstacles without looking back at mommy dearest for a snack and a snuggle. He entreats us to take a breath, chill, and revel in loving our children while also setting sane limits.
Here’s a secret: I agree with Bruni. … [but] there’s just no way to coat a childless person’s advice in anything that’s free of judgment, no matter how well-meaning. All of us do it – judge, that is, often laying the harshest criticism on the mom in the mirror – but at least when we’re sniffing at or dissing other parents, we do so from a position as, well, one of them. Bruni can qualify all he likes, but he’s still going to be taken for an outsider, one who’s simply never walked in the shoes with the spit up on them.
Several childless people I know pointed out one thing I know, but hadn’t brought into my post, which is that the childless live in the same world with the people we parents are raising, and as such, certainly have an opinion, and that’s valid. If my kids kick your airplane seat, that affects your trip, right?
But it’s more than whining kids on planes or in restaurants. My childless friends may end up sitting across a desk from my son one day, looking to fill a position at a job. That childless friend has a stake in how my sons and his cohort turn out, you know, in that larger, global, we-all-have-a-stake sense. But does that childless friend, right now, have a say in what I feed my son or how I discipline him? Even further, does the childless person who sees me in a bad moment at Target have say in how I parent?
I don’t necessarily think that the things I said or — more often, thank goodness — thought about parenting before I had my kids should have carried much weight with those whose kids I was merely observing.
What do you think?
April 4, 2013 @ 3:57 pm
Warning, I’m going play devil’s advocate. The thing is, I do think I know a lot more about parenting now that I’m a parent. What’s gets sticky is when we inform non-parents that they don’t have a valid opinion.
I remember several years ago getting into a chat room argument (dear lord) with a mom who asserted that it was her right to let her children run around restaurants and crawl under tables. I thought that children should be taught to behave in restaurants, but she told me I had “no right to my opinion” because I wasn’t a parent and that if I didn’t like children crawling around on restaurant floors then I should be the one to stay home.
The whole awful exchange made me feel a couple things. One was that I was a bad person for having an opinion (who can help that? it’s human nature), and the other was that I was a nobody. Not a mom? Who cares what you think? Put up with my kids and shut up.
Since becoming a parent, I’ve remembered what this felt like and I try very hard not to under value someone’s opinion if they don’t have children. They have a right to not like being kicked in the seat, to enjoy their dinner out, to grocery shop without tripping over a running toddler. As much as I can, I make sure to put those people first by teaching my toddler how to behave in public and disciplining myself to not take the easy way out by letting him get away with misbehavior.
Other issues, like what he eats and where he sleeps, isn’t as obvious to outsiders, but they can still think what they want. My sister thinks my 2 year old should be allowed a sip of her coke? Well, she’s right, one sip won’t hurt him. Someone thinks he should sleep in his own bed all night? They’re right, he should, we’re working on that believe me. Really, sometimes it’s outsiders who see the “big picture” and it’s us on the inside who make matters complicated.
April 4, 2013 @ 4:41 pm
Briana, thanks. I think you are 100% right, and part of my approach to parenting has always been, fundamentally, turning these boys into good people. I always wanted them to be the kids who, after they left someone’s home, the hosts would say, “what great kids; we want them to come back!” and not, “thank GOD those hellions are on their way home!” And I know that this feeling was honed in the years I was a childless adult watching kids act atrociously when I was out and about. That being said, now that I’m a parent, I DO understand that sometimes the kids just act out and it’s not ALWAYS a reflection of the parenting.
And I think that chat room lady has it ass backwards! wonder what her kids are like now?!
Denise
April 6, 2013 @ 3:56 pm
Wow. I’m a parent and allowing your child to crawl around a restaurant is plain dangerous an neglectful.
April 4, 2013 @ 3:59 pm
I, too, read Bruni’s article. And I, too, agreed with what he had to say. Unfortunately, I think that because he’s never truly walked the “dad” line, what he says doesn’t have as much weight as it would coming from you or me. I said many of the same things about parenting and raising children before I had one of my own and my friends with kids would tell me I had no idea what I was in for or what I was talking about. Now that I say the same things that I said BK (before kids), they applaud me for it.
I don’t understand it. It’s just the way it is.
April 4, 2013 @ 6:00 pm
I think, even if we agree with what the childless think, that they don’t always know how HARD that can be. When you have a newborn and a toddler and are beyond exhausted, sometimes it’s trickier to tackle a parenting moment than it seems. So that time that my son dropped a bowl of Cheerios a a restaurant and I apologized to the waiter and gave him an extra large tip and he said he didn’t mind taking care of it, perhaps someone across the room thought I was selfish for not picking them up.
Or the time in an ice cream shop, when my toddlers chair collapsed when he sat on it, he fell and hit his head and spilled his milkshake and started to cry and woke up his baby sister, and I had to endure nasty looks from a girl in the corner on a laptop.
Or last month in a shoe store when I raised my voice to my children to behave because “this is a shoe store. Not a playground. Sit down and be quiet for five minutes…or else…” And a college aged girl looked at me in horror.
In short, I don’t think you need to experience something to have a valid opinion. But sometimes the experience itself can give added insight. Also, no matter what you do, someone will judge and think you are doing it wrong. I gave up caring what strangers think a long time ago.
April 5, 2013 @ 8:45 am
I think the old adage “it takes a village” is pretty apt here. The problem is that we’re all on the defensive about child-rearing, assuming that any commentary is a criticism about who we are (since parenting has taken over our whole identity!). If we could put ourselves in the mindset (not that I always can, mind you) that we are all in this together trying to build a better society made of better people, where all adults have a stake in raising children who will be “better” adults, maybe we could listen to each other instead of playing a blame game.
April 5, 2013 @ 8:22 pm
Denise, like you, I nodded all the way through Bruni’s article. In fact, even before I read your parenting.com response, I wondered if much of it had been cribbed from your book.
Clearly Bruni has a journalist’s great powers of observation, speculation, and imagination, presented in a readable and compelling fashion. Does he have the *right* to judge, criticize or offer advice? It’s a tough nut when I agree with him to say otherwise and I’m a bit torn, but I’ll offer up my own experience.
My sister had her children almost 19 years before I had mine, and I distinctly remember having some strong opinions about some of her methods. To wit, she breast fed her second daughter until *gasp!* she was 11 months old and I thought this was some sort of weird neediness on her part. I remember feeling quite sheepish when my own daughter wasn’t fully weaned until she was nearly two. It worked for us.
Another example was getting similar criticism from my brother, who felt that me co-sleeping with my daughter until 11 months was another kind of neediness. For me, it was convenience, intuition, and again, something that worked for us. Ironically, they had two kids a few years after mine, and their daughter still sleeps in their family bed at over a year.
Lastly, my twin has a son very close in age to my daughter. Being close, we talked about a lot of parenting techniques and what we found was that what would work for one might not work for the other.
I guess my point is, parenting on the specifics comes down to situation, personal preference, and the personalities involved. I’m sure parents of more than one child can attest that often times their strategies must be different for one child than another. It is *so very easy* to say a person “should” do this or that, but entirely impossible to do so with any degree of precision until you have done it yourself, not just as a parent, but even so far as a parent of that particular child.
Bruni has every right to lament, on a macro level, about the results of hyphenated gerund parenting, perhaps every right to speculate how it is the current parenting trends created “Millennials” with all their sense of entitlement. I did it before I became a parent and continue to do so afterward. I’m not so convinced I can consider him an authoritative source of parenting advice when he’s never actually done it. Akin to you bristling at marriage advice from a Catholic priest, I’m not sure I’d get sex counselling from a eunuch, take wine selection suggestions from a teetotaller either, or dog obedience classes from someone who has never had a dog.
I’m afraid Bruni’s article, as much as I agree with the substance of it, can only be considered anecdotal.
April 6, 2013 @ 11:40 pm
Exactly! Walk a mile in our shoes, childless folk, walk a mile.
By the way, I was pretty darned judgmental of parenting techniques before I had my own too! Most of what I thought was right has completely changed since then. Thanks Denise! You have played some part in that process!
April 5, 2013 @ 11:51 pm
I don’t ever EVER comment on someone else’s parenting (at least not to their face, I might think it in my head or tell my husband later). Before I had kids or now that I have one– you don’t know what it is like to be that person, in that moment, with that child. What works with my son might not work for yours. I will saying regarding Bruni’s article that he clearly doesn’t understand the psychology (insanity!) of toddlers if he doesn’t understand giving them so many “options.” If it’s between offering your 2 year old a choice between two different foods, or tell them “this is what you are eating” and endure a tantrum, I’m pretty sure he’d come on board with all the options quickly!
April 6, 2013 @ 3:54 pm
Yes. They have a right to their opinion. Most everyone has an opinion on the president even though they have never been president. People have a right to an opinion on whatever they please.
I have a child and happen to agree with the NYT writer. I think the same way now about child rearing as I did well before I had a child.
April 6, 2013 @ 7:16 pm
I have to say, I get REALLY irritated when non-parents judge parenting styles. The worst, though, for me, is when people complain about crying babies on airplanes. That’s not something a parent can help, and is such an expression of self-centerdness on the part of childless adults, in my opinion. What do they expect the young of our species to do, stay hidden out of sight? Don’t they realize they were once crying, pooping, spitting-up infants too, and someone wiped their bottoms for them and held them tenderly through their tears?
Sorry, but this gets me a bit wound up. To be honest, I think the real problem is how age-segregated our society is. In some cultures, even some modern European cultures, it is quite common for almost all social activities to be multi-generational affairs. In the US, you rarely see that kind of thing. I think that children in more integrated cultures are often better behaved, because they have to mix with others of all ages, and, consequently, the whole community participates in raising them. Childless adults in that kind of community have been participating in childcare since they could carry younger siblings and cousins, and are not as easily put off by normal child behavior, and may even put out a little effort to help a parent who is struggling.
As far as I’m concerned, childless adults in our society should take some responsibility for helping to raise our children. It is a community responsibility. If they are doing their part, then their opinions should have some weight. Otherwise, they can keep it to themselves.
April 6, 2013 @ 10:32 pm
I disagree with you on this. It’s not just babies crying, it’s kids kicking the seats of others and acting crazy. I think that unless it is an absolute dire emergency, a plane is no place for small kids. Not only are they going to be miserable, but the adults they are disturbing are going to be miserable too. It’s a small tube that is stuffy and crowded. I think it’s a bit selfish on parents part to cart cranky infants and ill-behaved small children on a plane. I think that they are the ones who are selfish to impose their children on others. They paid to fly just like you did, except there is a good chance you are holding your child or sharing your seat, which makes the situation even harder.
It is also not a community responsibility for people to help raise your children. If it were a community responsibility you wouldn’t get defensive when someone corrects your child in public or tries to give you advice. Others did not sign up for your child. Just like others did not sign up for mine.
I don’t have a lot of tolerance or empathy for people with misbehaved kids because I raised my child the way people like the NYT author thinks they should be raised and she never threw a tantrum in public, ever. She never kicked other’s seats in the movie or anywhere else. I never wimped out and said I was tired and others should cut me some slack, or that parent-less kids just don’t understand. That is an excuse that people use not to raise their kids in an acceptable manner. Defensive parents who won’t listen to the opinions of others are usually the parents with the kids crawling under tables and acting like maniacs.
The attitude that childless adults can’t be right because they don’t have kids is holier than thou and dismissive. I feel like it’s a bit immature as well.
April 6, 2013 @ 11:24 pm
I guess we are just going to disagree on this, Kimberly. I do agree with the NYT writer as well, as to how kids ought to be behaved and raised, but we don’t live in an ideal world. Some children have behavior problems that are completely unrelated to parenting efforts: autism, ADD, and other developmental disorders. I know a parent whose son has autism who has been repeatedly fussed at by others about his son’s behavior in public. He has been told, point blank, that he just should not bring his son out in public, to places like zoos, or museums, or even parks. Is this really the kind of world we want to live in, where children, the disabled, and anyone who makes our lives less comfortable or pleasant is relegated to living on the outskirts of society, or hiding in their homes?
Admittedly, this is an extreme example. But I think it is indicative of a larger attitude of intolerance and selfishness. It’s true, no one else signed up to have my kid, but we are all signed up to live in these communities together, and that requires some degree of helping one another to clean up messes and remedy errors that may not be of our own making. Don’t we ask our kids to pitch in to help their families, even though they never signed up for membership? Why do we make them do chores to maintain a household they have no vote in, and never decided to join? Could it be because, whether they choose to be or not, they are part of the human race, part of their community and part of a family. As members of society, we all owe it to one another to support and help each other. Very few of us can do this all on our own, and who would want to? If you find yourself in the position where things have gone well for you, so far, and you have not had to fall back on the kindness and support of your community, count yourself lucky.
I took an airplane flight with my infant son to go and stay with my mother, because, at the time, it was the best choice for us. I was living far from my family, and my son’s father had turned out to be a useless alcoholic who was no help at all. My son had constant, all-day colic. Few of my “friends”, who were themselves mostly childless, stepped up to help me at all. I went to stay with my mother because I could not raise my constantly crying son alone, in poverty.
Now, did I make some poor decisions that landed me in this untenable situation? Of course! Who has not made a few poor decisions in his/her day? Was that anyone else on the airplanes’s fault? Not at all. That doesn’t absolve them from a human imperative to have compassion for those who are struggling to find their way. What did they know of me and my circumstances? Some women are raising children that are the result of rape, and have very little support or help. A slightly less than pleasant airplane flight is not a terrible thing for someone to have to cope with, in the grand scheme of things. If my son was bothered by a baby crying nearby on a plane, I’d tell him to suck it up and think how hard it might be for the parents and baby (maybe I’d use kinder language to explain this to him, but you get the jist:).
I guess, when I think about it, whether you are childless or a parent is really beside the point. The point is this: who has the right to cast the first stone? It’s just possibly a bit more galling for me when the stone caster can have no idea at all what they are talking about, such as childless people who judge parents.
In most societies, the world over, it is considered, at least to some extent, a community responsibility to raise children. Heck, even in our rabidly individualistic culture, we still pay taxes so that all kids can attend school (we do whine about it constantly, though). I feel that our society is lacking an education for young people about how to interact with children and the elderly? We are so militantly age-segregated these days. Even two kids who are pretty close in age, maybe only a couple of years apart, are usually segregated by age into grades at school, on separate teams for sports, etc. When are young people ever supposed to learn about how to interact with those who are younger than them? When do they learn to play more gently so the little kid can join, or to lose a little bit so someone smaller can win? When do they learn that their needs may have to take a back seat to those of the baby simply because the baby is a baby, and is helpless and small? Many of our kids don’t even grow up in large families anymore, where they can practice some of these skills at home. Many grow up a lot later than they used to, in fact. In our grandparents generation, Older kids were expected to help care for younger kids in their own families and neighborhoods, and young adults were usually all parents already themselves. So many people these days make it through their twenties without ever having to put anyone else’s needs before their own.
April 7, 2013 @ 7:06 pm
Community is one thing, but wanting people take responsibility for your child is another. If I wanted to be responsible for a child (and not be paid for it), I’d have my own. I will gladly help someone I see in need, regardless of age, if I’m able to. However, I am not going to drop what I’m doing to be a babysitter. Just as I don’t expect anyone to take responsibility for myself and family, I don’t take responsibility for others unless I chose to.
“So many people these days make it through their twenties without ever having to put anyone else’s needs before their own.”
And this is bad because…? Are we all supposed to have children by the time we’re twenty?
“When do they learn to play more gently so the little kid can join, or to lose a little bit so someone smaller can win?”
So let me get this straight: Because someone is “smaller”, someone who’s “bigger” should always be required to “play nice” so as not to hurt their little feelings? The world does not work that way. Children cannot be a part of everything. That’s why places like bars have age restrictions (or are supposed to anyway). And what does the child learn? That they win just for being little? How long does that work?
I remember being told a few times as a child I could not do something because I was too young. I might’ve cried, I might have not, but either way, I got over it and found something I could do.
“Don’t we ask our kids to pitch in to help their families, even though they never signed up for membership? Why do we make them do chores to maintain a household they have no vote in, and never decided to join? Could it be because, whether they choose to be or not, they are part of the human race, part of their community and part of a family.”
No. It’s because they don’t have a choice until they’re able to support themselves. You do realize that most kids grow up and move away, correct? The day I moved out, I stopped doing chores at my parents’ house. I still visit, but unless I mess up something or offer help, I do not do any work around their house nor do they come over to my house and do work around mine unless they feel like offering.
However, chores are entirely different from taking responsibility for someone else’s child. What if that kid decides to run into the street and gets hit? Is it the community’s fault for not watching him, despite that only two people had him? No.
It is not selfish to refuse responsibility for something that is not your fault, but it is selfish to expect to pick up your responsibility because “it takes a village” (until the village has a disliked opinion, of course). I am capable of putting others’ needs before my own and I often do, sometimes to the point that my own needs are ignored or neglected and I literally have to be told to take care of myself.
“Older kids were expected to help care for younger kids in their own families and neighborhoods, and young adults were usually all parents already themselves.”
Again, it is not bad that this has changed. Many of my friends and I are older siblings and only one of us does not resent basically having to be a second caregiver to our siblings. That’s because that particular friend and her sibling get along and her sibling is independent. One of my friends went to another state because she tired of having to watch her siblings. We don’t all need (or want) to be parents when we haven’t even been legal adults for long. I have nothing against young parents. However, if someone were to ask me why didn’t have a child in my twenties, we’d have a problem.
“Many of our kids don’t even grow up in large families anymore, where they can practice some of these skills at home.”
So if a child doesn’t have 4+ siblings, they can’t practice sharing or such? That’s weird. I only have one sibling, yet I have no problem with sharing, empathy, putting my needs second or most else. And what about school? You know, the place where they’re surrounded by twenty other kids in a classroom?
“As members of society, we all owe it to one another to support and help each other. Very few of us can do this all on our own, and who would want to?”
I would because I don’t like owing anyone anything nor do I like being owed anything. The only thing I owe is to act like a decent human being. That does not mean taking on someone else’s responsibility for the sake of “community”. I would actually be embarrassed if I could not take care of and help myself, let alone children I brought into the world on my own choice.
April 10, 2013 @ 5:18 pm
Kaye: “So let me get this straight: Because someone is ‘smaller’, someone who’s ‘bigger’ should always be required to ‘play nice’ so as not to hurt their little feelings? The world does not work that way. Children cannot be a part of everything. That’s why places like bars have age restrictions (or are supposed to anyway). And what does the child learn? That they win just for being little? How long does that work?”
No, I don’t think little kids should win all the time. When kids are playing pick up sports games, though, in mixed age groups, it is natural for older kids to alter the rules a bit for the younger ones, or to lob them a softball now and then. I don’t think this teaches little kids that they win just for being little. I think it teaches everyone that we are all playing with different strengths and weaknesses, and, if we want to play together, then we need to adapt to accommodate one another now and then. Of course there are some activities that are just for adults. I love going to the movies without my son. It’s great to have breaks from the kids here and there. Bars may not be the best example, though. Alcoholism is actually much less common in countries like France, where bars are less common and parents tend to drink at home, at dinner, with their kids. Seeing adults drink in moderation, with meals, in a community setting, tends to encourage responsible drinking habits, evidently.
“No. It’s because they don’t have a choice until they’re able to support themselves. You do realize that most kids grow up and move away, correct? The day I moved out, I stopped doing chores at my parents’ house. I still visit, but unless I mess up something or offer help, I do not do any work around their house nor do they come over to my house and do work around mine unless they feel like offering.”
Yes, but do you not help to clean up messes in your own home that are not always yours? Do you not pay taxes to have your streets kept clean and in good repair? Do you not report for jury duty? The reason my son does chores is, at least partly, because I want to teach him that he has a duty to his community. That’s why he doesn’t get paid to do them. Allowance is a separate issue. Right now, his community is his household. When he becomes older, his community will be different and bigger. No, he will not likely spend a lot of time cleaning my house once he is an adult, unless, of course, I become too sick or too old to do it all myself. In that case, I sure as hell hope I have raised him to be compassionate enough to help me.
“Many of my friends and I are older siblings and only one of us does not resent basically having to be a second caregiver to our siblings.”
I’m sorry that this is your experience. I was an older sibling and cared for my younger siblings quite a bit. I did have moments of resenting it when I was younger. It actually caused me to wait much longer to have my own (this can be considered a side benefit, in my opinion), because I had some glimmer of how hard it would be. I’m grateful for the experience now, though, because it has helped me in the raising of my own son. Also, my very kind and responsible younger siblings are now wonderful aunts and uncles that care for my son on a regular basis. Free of charge. I hope to do the same for them when they have their kids in a few years.
“I would because I don’t like owing anyone anything nor do I like being owed anything. The only thing I owe is to act like a decent human being. That does not mean taking on someone else’s responsibility for the sake of “community”. I would actually be embarrassed if I could not take care of and help myself, let alone children I brought into the world on my own choice.”
This is obviously your choice. You strike me as a fiercely independent person who has felt that independence too sharply curtailed, at times, by the demands of others. I, personally, would feel very sad to live like that. What I am trying to talk about is not a sense of “owing” one another anything. This was not the best choice of words, on my part. What I am trying to say here is that I believe we are all best served in serving one another as well as ourselves. Some of us have much to give, and some of us have very little. Often we just have very different gifts. I think we are all enriched when we give what we can and look upon others with as much compassion as we can muster rather than leaping to judgment. I have no money right now, because I am a single mother and am in school. My parents have taken me back into their home, free of charge, until I can finish my degree. I hope I can repay them someday, though they don’t expect it of me. My Dad tells me regularly that it is so special to him to have me living here. He wants us here because he loves being with us, and he has very little money himself and still works long hours. Right now, I give back by cleaning house, by giving hugs, by volunteering at the local hospital, and by refusing to judge others who I see who may be struggling. I never thought I would end up in this position, but here I am, and thank god for the kindness of family, friends, and strangers.
A documentary film came out recently called “Happy.” The film explored recent discoveries in the research on happiness, and one of the most consistent findings was that people are happiest when they have supportive, strong communities. Friends, families, and societies that value their members are healthier and happier. There are many wonderful things about modern american life, but you’d be hard pressed to make the case that we are good at creating strong families and communities. Another finding was that one of the things that is most likely to make us happier is doing something kind for others.
I do think, in general, that it is a societal responsibility to care for children. Of course, it is the parents responsibility to be the parent. No one else can or should do this (excepting, of course, abusive or neglectful situations). Children, though, are not like property or pets. They are living human beings in need of adult help to survive and grow. They come into this world via the decisions of two people, but how they turn out effects everyone, not just those two people. You can blame and judge parents all you want. You can say “well, they had the kids so they can handle the mess and keep it out of my way,” but that won’t necessarily help anyone, least of all the children themselves. Some kind words or a helping hand, on the other hand, could make all of the difference.
April 14, 2013 @ 10:28 am
Well, I have 5 sons that were raised by the same parents. Funny, they all behaved differently in public. I had one child that would have tantrums for reasons I couldn’t even fathom. He’d be sitting in the grocery cart content until, BAM, tantrum. I also had a child who was a perfect angel all throughout childhood. Both children grew up to become well-manner, bright young men.
Children are people, they have different personalities and are going to respond differently to situations. As a parent, you have to be flexible and realize that children’s behavior is not always a reflection of you. Judgemental people (Kimberly, I’m looking at you) will not be able to grasp that fact. Children are in the process of learning how to behave. Learning means that they haven’t nailed it down yet, and you can expect some disruptive behavior…even in public…with others watching.
April 22, 2013 @ 10:30 pm
Yes! Right on.
April 24, 2013 @ 10:51 pm
Well said.
April 24, 2013 @ 10:45 pm
Yikes! “Holier than thou?” We all have our moments, as your rant makes apparent.
April 8, 2013 @ 8:13 am
Actually, when I flew, I paid for my kids seats. Is the money of a childless person somehow worth more than mine? Also on a flight with us was a woman who held her baby that SLEPT the entire time. We were more disturbed by the guy who drank too much and got into an argument with his wife, and the teenager listening to music with nasty lyrics far too loud that had to be asked by the flight attendant multiple times to turn it down. There are ignorant people in all places. Some of them let their children kick the seats in front of them. And some of them complain because a baby cries for a few minutes at takeoff. Banning children from all flights unless its an emergency? Ridiculous and short sighted.
April 8, 2013 @ 12:33 pm
The idea of others being responsible for all the children in their community/society is not the same thing as everyone being AS responsible as the child’s actual parents or guardians, I think (and I think that’s what Carmelite was saying, am i right?). We all should be more tender with each other, more forgiving, less segregated from one another. That might make it easier to, for example, look kindly on a parent dealing with a crying baby on a plane, as well as try to correct or deflect a situation in which a child is behaving badly on a plane and the parent — to an outside observer — seems not to care.
Of course we all have opinions about how children are raised, and of course we all have a stake in how the children alive now turn out, in a broad sense. How can that not be?
Kayris: I’m with you; back in the days i flew internationally pretty often, I had WAY more problems with drunk adult seatmates than I ever did with kids.
Kaye: You wrote this — “…I don’t like owing anyone anything nor do I like being owed anything. The only thing I owe is to act like a decent human being. That does not mean taking on someone else’s responsibility for the sake of “community”. I would actually be embarrassed if I could not take care of and help myself, let alone children I brought into the world on my own choice.” I really hope you don’t mean this quite as it sounds. We all need help sometimes. I think one of the hardest aspects of modern parenting is how alone we can feel sometimes, whether that’s because we’re not near family,not close enough to friends or neighbors (in some cases we barely know our neighbors), or because we’re so afraid of being judged if we open up about differences in how we all raise our kids.
This is an excellent discussion; thanks for keeping it going and keeping it thought provoking and civil.
Denise
April 10, 2013 @ 4:16 pm
“The idea of others being responsible for all the children in their community/society is not the same thing as everyone being AS responsible as the child’s actual parents or guardians, I think. We all should be more tender with each other, more forgiving, less segregated from one another. That might make it easier to, for example, look kindly on a parent dealing with a crying baby on a plane, as well as try to correct or deflect a situation in which a child is behaving badly on a plane and the parent — to an outside observer — seems not to care.”
Yes Denise! This is just what I was saying. I don’t expect to sit on my butt while my kid destroys a restaurant and hope other people clean up the mess. On the other hand, if I see someone struggling through a moment of parenting his toddler, even in a public setting, I would hope that I would look upon that interaction with compassion and perhaps even a little bit of patience. When I had a colicky infant, people would sometimes let me go before them in grocery lines, or offer me seats on the bus. They could see that waiting in line or standing up was harder for me and my crying newborn than it was for them, so they acted with compassion rather than judgement and irritation. I still do this kind of thing for others, when I can. I hope that I can raise my son to be the same way.
April 8, 2013 @ 4:39 pm
My kids are my responsibility and I don’t EXPECT anyone else to help me raise them, other than their father. But I would hope to raise them in a compassionate world where people are willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and a kind smile, instead of judging someone to be lazy or a bad parent. Children or no children, you never have any idea what that persons point of reference is. Maybe they had a bad day or maybe they just received bad news or maybe they have struggles you can’t see. Maybe I’m too naive to expect a world like that.
April 10, 2013 @ 3:56 pm
Yes! This is what I was saying. Perhaps I am unduly influenced by my own point of view. I had strong parenting opinions before my son was born, and they have changed radically since he arrived. More than that, though, I have simply developed a much deeper level of compassion. Compassion for parents, for kids, and for everyone. Even as a single adult, though, I was never the kind of person who sneered at people because their child was crying and disrupting my airplane flight. That kind of behavior, I think, indicates a distinct lack of empathy, and a lack of the kind of insight that you are describing. People so often forget that most of us are doing our best at any given moment, and we would all be best served by helping one another rather than judging.
April 9, 2013 @ 10:41 pm
Wow, Denise, I have enjoyed reading your blog for about a year now, but I have to say this was a really insulting article. You basically just said my thoughts about raising children are completely worthless because I haven’t had a child of my own. You said it yourself, that most of your ideas on raising children were formed before you even had kids. Why is that? I think it’s because a lot of our ideas come from our own childhoods. We base a lot of it on both the good and bad, to guide us in what we’d do similarly or differently from our parents. You said you’ve tweaked your ideas now that you have kids, as we all tweak our ideas with experience. But you didn’t do a complete overhaul. And just because I don’t have kids, my thoughts are completely invalid? If your argument is that you have to have kids before your ideas are valid, what is that magical turning point? Is it the moment you give birth? Does your baby or child have to reach a certain age? Or do you just have to experience a certain number of hours of sleep deprivation or change an allotted number of diapers? You’re blogging about raising your kids and hoping people will buy your book and use the ideas, but your kids aren’t grown yet. You’re ideas could still be considered unproven. At what point are your own ideas valid?
I believe most parents are just trying to do the best they can to raise happy and healthy children. It’s hard work, and I understand and respect that. I would never tell someone what they should do, and I would never want to make someone feel I was judging them. But I’m going to continue to share my thoughts and idea with friends and family when they seem appropriate. To say my ideas are invalid because I’m not a mother is not only insulting, it’s closed-minded.
April 10, 2013 @ 7:39 am
Brenda,
I’m sorry I insulted you! I didn’t mean to. In fact, what I believe I was saying is that while I agree with nearly all of what Bruni talks about in his piece, it felt weird or off coming from someone who hadn’t been a parent, in that public forum (a newspaper article, an opinion piece). In the same way that, as I wrote in the parenting.com post I reference in this post, that having received marriage advice from a Catholic priest before I got married was off. I DON’T think opinions such as Bruni’s,or yours,or mine before I had kids, are invalid; I just think that they have a different quality to them. I didn’t say any non-parent’s ideas are worthless, as you noted in your comment, and I’m sorry, truly sorry,you took that meaning from what I did write.
Again, I don’t think childless people’s ideas are invalid. I was using Bruni’s piece as a jumping off point to start a discussion.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Denise
April 10, 2013 @ 3:22 am
I agree with a comment on The Stir. The writer is basically saying get off the Mommy Bloggers, quit ripping ech other apart on forums and use this time to spend with your kid. As far as experience, just because a person has experience in something doesn’t mean they’re the best ones for advice. Would you ask Britney Spears for parenting advice? Would you have asked Liz Taylor for marriage advice? I may not have kids but I know how my generation was raised. I see kids run amok on the street and parents on drugs. So yes we know a little about what not to do. And you never know why someone doesnt have children.
April 16, 2013 @ 2:24 am
Once while we were traveling in Morocco, my son got the flu. He threw up on a crowded train going to the airport. I was mortified! I had nothing to clean it up with. He’s a great kid who never kicked airplane seats (and we traveled a lot on planes; he had his chances) and never ran wild through restaurants or annoyed adults by his mere presence–in fact we were often complimented by complete strangers on his behaviour. But he puked on the floor of a crowded train. It was horrible.
The Moroccans, used to more communal living, didn’t turn a hair. One woman even kissed him, poor love, obviously sick. They babied him, fussed over him, managed to get him a Sprite. A man said to me, “Why are you so upset? This is a part of life.” No one else cared.
This is mostly in response to some of the other comments. Things happen. Life is messy. Toddlers, even the most perfect ones, have tantrums sometimes. Adults, even the most rational ones, do too sometimes. (I once worked in a mall during Christmas so I know whereof I speak) I think there’s a lot of age-related prejudice out there. Frankly, it’s not help by the amount of permissive parenting.
Like you, my basic parenting philosophy hasn’t changed much with the advent of my own children. But my level of compassion has.
April 17, 2013 @ 7:52 am
So Kimberly, you don’t think anything in your posts comes across as holier than thou or immature? How extraordinary.
I don’t know where people get the idea that they should be treated with kids gloves on an airplane. It’s public transport, folks. If you’re too delicate to be inconvenienced by other human beings, get a private plane.
April 22, 2013 @ 10:32 pm
I wish there was a “like” button. I’ll just have to write it, I guess. LIKE!
April 17, 2013 @ 10:23 am
Being a parent or a nonparent is not that black-and-white these days. I married a man whose twin daughters were eight years old, though I met them when they were 3 1/2. While they lived with their mother, I saw them pretty regularly, although I never nursed a baby, weaned, or changed diapers. At age 15, one of the girls left her mother’s home (ran away, actually) and lived with us during high school. I know a lot about parenting a troubled adolescent.
So, am I allowed to express opinions or not? I have a lot of opinions, but I am careful about expressing them. I’m glad Bruni expressed his point of view; I believe he speaks for many of us who feel uneasy about saying much in the defensive climate we live in.
April 17, 2013 @ 10:52 am
Louisa, thanks for your perspective on this issue! I actually hear pretty frequently from step parents,and my hat is off to you and other step parents who have their own take on parenting, and often a tougher job in some respects.
Denise
May 22, 2013 @ 1:10 pm
I know that I am very, very late to this discussion, but I just wanted to comment on you saying that you often hear from step-parents, because I often feel like the stepmoms I talk to feel stricter than many of the “real” moms I talk to. And I think that that is in part because divorced dads often fall into a permissive parent role, moreso than never-divorced dads. Nobody wants to spend all their time with their kids fighting; and very generally speaking, on a day-to-day basis, that means that what usually happens is that whatever the level of expectation or discipline is at their mother’s house, the father’s house subconsciously readjusts to be juuuuuust a little bit more chilled-out and rules-relaxed than that.
And, seeing that, it can kind of have the result that stepmoms analyze that pattern a bit and take on the role of disciplinarian, even just behind the scenes, because they see firsthand how things go when that isn’t being done. And because the kids AREN’T theirs, they can sometimes be more preoccupied with making sure that the family functions rather than making sure that everybody is happy to be there, in the moment. It is a bit of a blend of the Frank Bruni/childless-judgment question – you are a “childless” person, therefore maybe more objective and detached when it comes to this child; but you are also a parent figure, and the problems of bad behavior or lax discipline can REALLY and truly affect your life. So you have a heightened reaction to “nice parenting” (by that I mean the opposite of “mean parenting,” not actually just being nice) at the same time that you sometimes lack the “awwww, but it’s my KID” emotional buffer that can stop some parents from sticking to rules or expectations. And, partnered with a dad whose inclination is to be more permissive than it otherwise would have been, you can feel pretty “mean” by comparison.
I also think that even when stepmoms are similar in expectations and disciplines to “real” moms, they “feel” meaner, because, well, stepmoms are mean and wicked, right? I mean, culturally? And so we over-correct and try very hard to only express or even feel positive things, because we are “soooooo not THAT kind of stepmother,” so much so that every moment of frustration or every disciplinary action can seem like abject cruelty and massive personal failure rather than just like basic parenting.
Basically I’m not surprised that a lot of stepmoms self-describe as “mean moms” and thus love your writing!