Can you spoil kids, like fruit? [photo: Everystock]
1. Are we saying an unspoiled kid is like a perfect ripe peach, and a spoiled kid is a piece of fruit in which rot has set in? Like, there’s nothing you can do?
2. Is spoiling what my grandmother might have said would happen if you picked up your newborn too often?
3. Is spoiling what happens when parents spend a lot of money on their kids?
4. Are spoiled kids the same as indulged, over-protected, entitled kids?
Me, I’m going to go with #4. For #1, well, kids who are spoiled aren’t “ruined”. As for #2, the research has long ago debunked grandma; no child is “spoiled” by a surfeit of physical affection. Number 3 is slightly tricky, because it often overlaps with #4. You can overindulge by spending a lot of money. You can also spend money without spoiling, if you spend wisely and give your children a sense of the value of what you’re spending, so that he doesn’t grow up thinking he deserves all that and a bag of chips.
I bring up spoiling because it’s been all over the place in recent weeks. First, this story got a lot of play: a study that purported to pinpoint which American cities contained the most spoiled children — which was based on how much money is spent on the kids. That feels like faulty research to me, even given that I’m no scientist or statistician. But to my ear, what that sounds like is that if you’re a wealthy family in New York City who spends $40,000 annually on a private elementary school (not a made up figure, by the way), your kids are ipso facto more spoiled than, say, my kids who go to a well-rated suburban public school. But what if I had a spare $80,000 to spend on school for my two boys — would that make them spoiled? See what I said above: it’s all in the attitude. The infographic in that story, from Business Insider, helpfully points out that New York City (surprise! That’s where the most spoiled kids reside!) is home to the famed toy store FAO Schwarz. I wonder if the creators of the infographic realize that most of the shoppers at FAO are tourists?
The next to pop up was an article entitled Spoiled Rotten in The New Yorker, by Elizabeth Kolbert. Some of my regular readers were kind enough to point out that she mentions my book Mean Moms Rule, if only in passing, in her piece exploring how and why American kids may be more spoiled than any kids in any other point in history or spot on the globe. Now, this definition of spoiling, the impression one gets from the article, that spoiled kids are raised by parents who do everything for them, long past the time they should? This I can get behind.
Kolbert opens the piece with an observation by an anthropologist working with an Amazonian tribe called the Matsigenka; apparently, a six-year-old girl there made herself busy and useful helping the researchers by, among other self-directed tasks, finding and boiling crustaceans to eat (and I’m betting she didn’t even whine!). Meanwhile, an eight-year-old Californian girl, who was observed as part of a study conducted here in the States, sat at her kitchen table wondering how she was expected to eat the food placed in front of her without a fork (apparently she was either unaware of the presence of forks in the nearby silverware drawer, or unsure of her own ability to fetch one for herself. Or, for that matter, for anyone else. In any case, of course, her dad brought one to for her).
So of course by comparison the Matsigenka child is miles ahead of the average American six-year-old, who hasn’t yet been required to (or trusted to, another problem) make her own PB&J sandwich.
After this piece came out, and after I pondered sending Elizabeth Kolbert a bouquet of flowers for mentioning my book (in The New Yorker! My heart is still beating a bit fast), I started thinking about the end result of the kind of “spoiling” that is represented by those American kids shouting for forks. Is the end result of sitting around waiting for your parents to do and create and fix and smooth everything for you, a young adulthood where you still expect those things? Or are unable to do some fairly basic things for yourself?
I think so. I’ve seen it, and I suspect you have, too. So how happy was I to get to go on TV last week, on a New York City news/talk program called “Live from the Couch,” to talk about whether American parents are turning out the most spoiled kids.
And I think I will send Kolbert those flowers, just for karma’s sake. And maybe include a note, because in her piece she describes an attempt she made in her own house to get her children (older than 6 or 8, by the way) to do some chores. But it took just one overturned garbage can and dropped sack of groceries later before she gave up.
Which, of course, is a major part of the spoiling problem, right there.
What’s your definition?
I have two kids in private school and do not think they are spoiled because of it. It was a choice made based on what was available in Baltimore City (not a lot) and what was best for them. We’ve made other sacrifices in order to swing the tuition. Anyway, I don’t think it’s the AMOUNT of money spent, but the reasoning behind it and what it’s being spent on. For example, my son came home from first grade this past school year asking for an iPad because a classmate has one. I freaked and nearly went through the roof. This child also has multiple game systems, an iPod touch, and I don’t even know what else. What 7 year old needs his own iPad?
IMO, a lot of spoiled kids have not been taught or expected to treat others with respect. These are the kids that order their parents around or wonder, “How can I eat my food without a fork?”
As my kids’ preschool teacher always said, preschoolers are supposed to press your limits and go out of bounds. It’s your job to keep them in bounds. And if you don’t learn to do that when they are 4, heaven help you when they are 16.
Oh, and I forgot to share this story about overprotected kids.
Last spring, I was at the park with my kids when a woman came rushing over, practically hysterical, to tell me that my son was climbing a tree. 1–I knew this. He climbs trees every time we go to the park. 2–He will be 8 in a couple of months.
I raised and eyebrow and said, “Yes, I know.” And she responded with, “He could FALL!”
He could. He might one day. But the one who fell out of a tree recently was ME. I wouldn’t recommend tree climbing during nesting season.
Denise, I agree with you. Looking at what a parent spends on kids is really not a measure of spoiled. I was one of those parents that tended to do more and get more for my kids when they were little (full time working mom guilt) and certainly pay the price now that my kids are 9, 15 & 17 (and I am “underemployed”). Money is expected to flow to them on demand and their chores turn out to be me hounding them many times over many days to get them done (and these don’t even count as chores…I.e. pick up dirty clothes off the floor and put them in the hamper, in my opinion). So kudos to parents who start early on helping kids become independent, learn the value of money and satisfaction from what is earned, step back and let them learn the lessons life has for them. It will be harder for my kids (and for me) but I am slowly working on getting back on the “right” track. Great article!
One of the most interesting things about the “spoiling” conversation is that almost no one thinks their own children are spoiled. Instead, we easily spot and diagnose it in everyone else’s children!
I believe this IS the problem. Parents are just not seeing it in themselves. They are perpetuating the over indulged, can’t do or think for themselves children but doing too much for far too long and getting overly involved in things they should stay out of. The idea of overly obsessed safety conscience parents also drives me crazy. From can’t walk to school to can’t climb trees is ridiculous and actually based on nothing. The stats in Canada HAVE NOT INCREASED in the last 30 yrs for child kidnapping/abduction. STATS also say a child is MORE likely to be abducted by a PARENT. And how ’bout the stats on vaccines. Because of OVER ZEALOUS safety conscience parents some have STOPPED inoculating our children, the diseases that were almost eliminated are coming back and on the rise threatening the population once again. They are misinformed and misguided (if not well meaning).
True story: We had to teach a 10 year old child how to use a knife. We had invited her for dinner and she had no idea how to cut her own meat. Her mother still cut her meat at 10??
I’m not a perfect parent by any means. All parents are “just doing their best” but how can we change society???? I have no idea and it frustrates me. Why do i care? Because as my children age they are being more and more affected by other parent’s influence in school or sport to a point where we have to work even harder to counter act the influence. Volleyball games start a 5 so no one “feels” bad when they lose to a score of “zero”. House League soccer are no longer keeping score for children under 12. There is a no touch policy at the school interpreted differently by each teacher from no hugs to can’t play tag. How do I tell my children to follow the rules when the rules are inane and counter productive to how I NEED to raise my children….to be productive, self-sufficient, thinking members of society who know how to problem solve and keep going when they find obstacles in life.
I zeroed in on that part of the New Yorker piece where the author gave her son a “new” job of taking in the groceries from the car. My kids and I howled with laughter (ok, just maybe chuckled with cynicism) after her son dropped the bag and its contents splattered on the driveway that she gave him another “new” chore of taking out the garbage. Huh? After reading the entire piece (which was wonderful, BTW) I couldn’t help but notice the irony!
Christina – good point. Those chores – especially carrying groceries from the same car he presumably often got out of while it was full of groceries – should have been built in a bit earlier…And not even thought of as chores. It’s just — we bought food for the family, now we have to bring it in the house.
It may sound a bit odd but I often think about dog training…one of our first dog trainers held to that Dog Whisperer idea that YOU have to be in charge. One of the ways you show that is by entering the house first or leaving first…not letting your dog race ahead of you. Interesting how there are these somewhat subtle messages we can give..that either we are the authority, and deserve respect (a position which is comforting for kids, even if they initially resist) or that we are doormats, ready to be stepped on at every turn.
I am kinda shocked at all the spoiled kids I see these days…and it does range in my opinion from say a mom promising a kid she’ll buy him a toy that another kid has “We’ll get one after school today” (What?? Just because he saw another kid with it and liked it?) to letting kids get away with not greeting neighbors. What’s true again and again is that “spoiling” is ultimately a diservice to the kid. You do, I think, ruin things a bit by making the world either scary (providing no authority), boring (giving a kid everything he/she wants therefore not letting anything be special) or rather cold (not teaching the child to respect adults and therefore creating a feedback loop of disdain).
Thanks Denise for your guidance and providing a space for us to have a discussion about this stuff here…
Rachel, thanks (again). It’s SO FUNNY that you brought up the dog thing, because you made me go diving into my own archives. I KNEW I’d written about this before! Here’s an old post from 2009 I wrote in response to a NY Times article about how parents were starting to see the benefits of using Cesar Milan-style dog-training tactics on their kids:
http://deniseschipani.com/i-am-the-alpha-dog-how-dog-training-is-the-new-parenting/
Someone’s gotta be in charge, and I say it should be the person who doesn’t chew on the slippers or pee in corners (and that could be kids as easily as dogs, yes?)
Denise
The article in the New Yorker was discussed in two different threads on a forum I frequent. Some had the opinion that it was all about things and opportunities and that their children weren’t spoiled or it was unfair to compare tribes with LA, etc.
Some got what I thought was the actual point of it all. That ‘spoiled’ is the lack of age appropriate expectations. To those moms who understood the point, they said they immediately started giving their children additional chores, not doing everything for them, etc. and have seen fantastic results. Turns out the 3yo knew exactly where to put up all of her clean laundry. Imagine that. And now mom has ‘help’.
I don’t think it’s about private school (not to pick on the first commenter) – I don’t think it’s about being in sports or getting a car or any of the things that we commonly use the word ‘spoiled’ to describe. I think the article is more about the fact that 1st world countries, namely America, don’t expect that their children can DO anything. ‘They’re still babies, they’re too young’, etc.
and therein lies the problem. We need to raise our expectations for our children and they should, in turn, rise to meet them. Instead we baby them longer and send them off the college without knowing how to do their own laundry, pack their own lunch, properly clean their own dorm rooms, etc. We want them to have long, easy childhoods. But then we rob them of critical skills. We feel bad for the kids who ‘had to grow up too fast’ when in reality, if they’re capable of doing those things, then it’s likely our own children are also capable. Cooking? Cleaning? Learning about economics?
/off the soapbox
Emily – that’s true re: the worry about kids “growing up too fast” -but there’s this weird doubleness to it – On the one hand they ARE growing up way too fast: 8 year old girls wearing thongs, preteens watching violent movies, kids being exposed to horrifying news stories on a daily basis thanks to the internet and the 24-hour news cycles..but then in other ways they are absolutely allowed to be babies (spoiled and overindulged). Where they should be innocent, they’re not, and where they should be pitching in a bit more, they’re infantilized.
Denise – I gotta read that article! I COMPLETELY agree about the one in charge being the one who doesn’t pee in the corners (ha!)…as I agree with so many points in your amazing book that I finally got. (I love how you admit to not always liking to cosleep with your husband…I am the same way! Funny how it’s kinda forbidden to admit that…meanwhile there are couples going around with unbearable tension they won’t admit to, but AT LEAST THEY DO SLEEP IN THE SAME BED…so…no problems with the marriage there.
Your book is so helpful. I feel such a giant swell of relief…so many good points you make about how we have gotten to the crazy point where are at where so many parents have absolutely no control over their kids (and how unfun that is for everyone)…and what we can do about it. Mean Moms Rule – I absolutely love it!!!!
oh yes.. it’s a phenomenon. Kids allowed to be adults in all the wrong ways, but not allowed to be older in the ways that they need it..
very good point!
Yes!! This graf of yours in that post sums it up so well: “Obviously, the notion that parents are in control of the household, and should retain and maintain that authority with a calm assertiveness (that is, without hand-wringing or, worse, wondering aloud to their children if they’re doing the right thing) is hardly a new one. But as this piece points out, it’s gotten lost in this generation’s (and, arguably, that of the one before it) misguided desire to never say no. To be the child’s friend. To create a home atmosphere where the child’s immediate feelings take precedence over what’s good for the family, and what’s good for the child himself at some later date.”
A few years ago I posted on my blog New Parent Rules…sort of in the Bill Maher style…joking, but serious. The last one was:
“Rather than read extensive and pretentious volumes on child-rearing for the modern age, think of dog training: use positive reinforcement, ignore unwanted behavior, allow for plenty of exercise daily, (the dog/kid doesn’t care that it’s raining), don’t worry about fancy toys—give your time, and remember, muddy footprints on the clean bedspread call for a gentle reprimand, nothing more.”
Maybe I was too lenient with the gentle reprimand for muddy prints. I am so on board with your parent-in-charge message. It’s funny how these days that is radical! I am bewildered by other parents around here who defer to their kids on everything…yet they are, like the mom you describe in your book doling out the dollar for the vending machine, harried, distracted, not very happy.
Couldn’t agree more with you and all the posts. To nip that spoiled behavior in the bud, yes, you have to start early. I recently spoke with a friend who’s sister went to visit her with a 3 year old. My friend loves her sister, but was so happy to see them leave. Why? Because the mother was more concerned about about keeping her little son calm and happy than “dealing with a tantrum.” So they had to make sure the little boy was the center of attention and care the entire time.
Lord help that mom when he’s 15!
I’ve so enjoyed this discussion!
I think so many parents take the “easier to just do it myself” attitude, when in reality everyone wins when children do for themselves. I know I am guilty of this, but working on it.
I am always reminded of the proverb: “Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.” Substitute “child” for “man” and “PB&J” for “fish” and there you go….